haveblue3: can you see this?
Randall Glass has joined this chat.
narcogen@mac.com: yesyesyees
haveblue3: narc says he can't see some people
haveblue3: is it working?
narcogen@mac.com: yeah. I see claude (greyed out-- away?)
louiswuathbo: what... the chat?
narcogen@mac.com: you and randy
louiswuathbo: I'm here.
Tom Van Sinden has joined this chat.
haveblue3: wierd
Sep7imus has joined this chat.
haveblue3: so we're all here except mig
narcogen@mac.com: yeah, strange, I see claude and mnem in the chat, but their names are ghosted
louiswuathbo: losar
narcogen@mac.com: wait, I see mig now
louiswuathbo: you see mig?
haveblue3: yeah there he is
louiswuathbo: oh.
louiswuathbo: online
louiswuathbo: yeah.
rgmontag: rg's here
vansinden5: It's the Ghost skull
sep7imus: I see him.
sep7imus: Where's Froggie?
rgmontag: bottom of Halo?
haveblue3: hmm... miguel looks like a cat to me
louiswuathbo: he's activating BSODs on regret
tehFrogblast has joined this chat.
louiswuathbo: he's back now.
tehfrogblast: hi:)
louiswuathbo: nice new trick, fb. :)
tehfrogblast: thanks
Miguel Chavez has joined this chat.
haveblue3: yeah hehe
rgmontag: so who exactly do i bill my time to? ;)
louiswuathbo: mig
haveblue3: when does the pizza arrive?
rgmontag: got my beer
narcogen@mac.com: is it GOOD PIZZA?
sep7imus: mmm... pizza.
jmchavez: sorry for pulling you guys over
narcogen@mac.com: heh.. I'm going to have to make do with coffee, it's almost 9 AM :)
rgmontag: 6:41 pm tuesday
jmchavez: aright, I klilled those invites
haveblue3: 9:40
louiswuathbo: lol
rgmontag: so i'll start... Half-life 2, while lacking Multiplayer, is still a pretty good game.
narcogen@mac.com: I thought we were reviewing Metroid Prime 2?
haveblue3: it's not lacking multiplayer any more... they posted some new maps
narcogen@mac.com: and anyway HL2 has MP now
rgmontag: KOTOR 2?
sep7imus: I thought it Was Prince of Persia 3...
haveblue3: you can kill people by hurling toilets at them
jmchavez: ok my isight is up and running
haveblue3: obviously this is far better than halo 2
vansinden5: I thought we were talking about anime
sep7imus: oh joy.
narcogen@mac.com: in SOVIET RUSSIA, toilets hurl into you!
rgmontag: nasty
tehfrogblast: lol
narcogen@mac.com: ok, we're never going to get anywhere if we start like this :)
louiswuathbo: eww
jmchavez: aright
jmchavez: so lets try to use old style
sep7imus: oh, I see.. Narcogen@MAC.COM.
rgmontag: i was hoping to go thru Halo 2 again but didn't have time
jmchavez: chatting etiquette
jmchavez: are we cool witht htat?
narcogen@mac.com: yes, it's a semiactive mac.com account
louiswuathbo: ...
louiswuathbo: what's old style?
narcogen@mac.com: Mig is evoking the no mom jokes rule
rgmontag: yeah
Sep7imus has left this chat.
jmchavez: sept left chat?
jmchavez: rules are
jmchavez: one person gets to talk at a tiome
Sep7imus has joined this chat.
jmchavez: when done,
jmchavez: types g/q
jmchavez: er
jmchavez: g/a
jmchavez: for go ahead
jmchavez: and then next person that wants to say something does so
jmchavez: my excuse for a poor performance tonite is that I just got back from a much longer work day than I expected
jmchavez: so I just barely had time to get here and setup the chat
jmchavez: i have no notes, and I WANTED notes!
jmchavez: ah well
jmchavez: so
jmchavez: I'll make an opening statemtn
jmchavez: and then hand it to whoever wants it next
jmchavez: and so we being
jmchavez: begin
jmchavez: It's the 7th btw... gah
narcogen@mac.com: well, 8th here :)
haveblue3: you don't count
narcogen@mac.com: yeah yeah
rgmontag: america rules
sep7imus: he said "ga" not "g/a"
narcogen@mac.com: I know, we're waiting for the opening statement.
sep7imus: (actually, "gah")
jmchavez: we're here assembled to try to make sense of the community and our own personal reactions to the game that was, for many of us, a focal point of energy over the last few months
vansinden5: months?
narcogen@mac.com: years...
rgmontag: years
haveblue3: he said months not g/a
jmchavez: that game of course is Halo 2. It goes without saying that many of probably played it the very nite we received it in our grubby hands
jmchavez: reactions to the game have been pretty much all over the radar
jmchavez: and it's confusing in a way to see just how varied a reaction it has received
jmchavez: so under the old adage that more heads are better than one
jmchavez: we are here assembled to fight it out to the death... er, no.. to calmly discuss this thing called Halo 2
jmchavez: Before I hand it off
jmchavez: let me ask that we first start from way way back
jmchavez: sorry.... let me retype that
jmchavez: not to the fine details of the game, but to the game itself. what kind of luggage did it bring with itself, and how did it 'set itself up' for the position it's in now?
jmchavez: g/a
louiswuathbo: Well, some of that is easy.
louiswuathbo: We were expecting brand-new AI...
louiswuathbo: a continuation of the Halo story (for me, that included the novels)...
louiswuathbo: new goodies, and new ways to use them.
louiswuathbo: it was billed as everything Halo should have been, had they had more time
louiswuathbo: I think what came out was Halo, redone, but just as rushed as the first version.
louiswuathbo: g/a (for now :) )
jmchavez: anyone else?
narcogen@mac.com: That sound about right.
haveblue3: ::typing::
sep7imus: Apparently, it was going to about bacon... and ninjas.
vansinden5: I remember there being fire involved somehow, too
jmchavez: HB, break up the sentences dude
The AIM service could not send the message: A message or picture is too large to be transmitted.
narcogen@mac.com: It does seem just as rushed, and it seems as if the production of new assets (models, textures, locations) trumped anything else
narcogen@mac.com: as if huge portions of the game were thrown away at the last minute, eating time that would have been used to create those things Claude mentioned
narcogen@mac.com: Mig, perhaps you should act as moderator and hand off from one to the next, lag is meaning we all think we're picking up the hat :)
jmchavez: ok narc, you go tthe floor
narcogen@mac.com: I agree, it seemed rushed
narcogen@mac.com: lots of old elements got reused, apparently little touched, like AI
narcogen@mac.com: some elements that seemed to work well in the old game, except for minor points
narcogen@mac.com: say, the physics engine, aside from death animations
narcogen@mac.com: got completely replaced
narcogen@mac.com: and whole portions of the game seem either divorced from the story, or at least do very little to advance it
narcogen@mac.com: If I could get Bungie to answer one question, I'd want to know what ate up the time-- why three years was not enough for Halo 2, given what they did with the first game under what seemed like more pressure
narcogen@mac.com: g/a
jmchavez: ok, let me ask then
haveblue3: daammit
haveblue3: too much text :(
louiswuathbo: rotfl
haveblue3: One of the biggest factors that affected "how the game set itself up" was the tricky balance between how much Bungie wanted to reveal of the game and how much the community wanted to know about it.
jmchavez: g/a mark
haveblue3: The desire to surprise and to be surprised (witness the furor over spoilers in media and online after the game leaked)
haveblue3: necessitated marketing and releasing material that focused almost exclusively on a very small segment of the single-player campaign.
haveblue3: This was, in my opinion, the major factor that distorted expectations of that aspect.
jmchavez: what do you think
jmchavez: would have been our reactions
jmchavez: if we had been told that half the game we played as MC and the other half as Arbiter?
sep7imus: We would have been looking forward to it.
louiswuathbo: I'm not sure about that.
tehfrogblast: I wouldn't have liked to have had that spoiled.
haveblue3: I would have been initially opposed to it
sep7imus: We would have thought it was going to be the coolest thing possible in a game... that was the reaction to almost everything Bungie leaked.
louiswuathbo: hehe - fair enough.
jmchavez: would that have prepped us in advance of knowing it was no longer going to be us AS the MC?
narcogen@mac.com: I also would not have wanted that spoiled
narcogen@mac.com: Besides, the fans that did not want it would have wanted their voices heard
narcogen@mac.com: and game design is not a democratic process, I don't think :)
haveblue3: you nailed it, mig- that's what playing as the arbiter takes away from the first game
haveblue3: even when you go back to the chief
rgmontag: i digged the Arbiter story
jmchavez: I would have had to balance the reaction to the coolness of being an elite....
vansinden5: I think they (and probably us too) worried too much about "spoiling" stuff
jmchavez: vs the distortion of storyflow and immersion as we bopped back and forth from mc to elite
louiswuathbo: I would have found playing as the arbiter far more interesting had there been ANY change whatsoever in my gameplay when it happened.
louiswuathbo: (besides HUD color.)
vansinden5: bingo
tehfrogblast: yes!
narcogen@mac.com: the HUD color changed?
sep7imus: I don't think that playing as the Arbiter was something that should NOT have been spoiled. It's not like it was a plot twist. It was a narrative decision.
jmchavez: there's of course another possibility, as Claude is mentioning now... could it have been done better?
vansinden5: we shouldn't be able to use human weapons, can jump farther, etc.
narcogen@mac.com: I thought it was a way of living up to the old promise of playing either side of a massive battle
rgmontag: well, the Covenant are carbon copies.. look at the vehicles (and some of the weapons) g/a
jmchavez: that's of course speaking to those folks that think it was a problem to begin with
sep7imus: Yeah, I LIKED playing as the Arbiter.
haveblue3: The cloaking device does make a pretty big difference in playing as the arbiter
haveblue3: it lets you do different things from the chief
louiswuathbo: I might agree with you, mark... if I remembered to use it. :(
narcogen@mac.com: or would if it lasted longer... but it was still a small change
narcogen@mac.com: true
vansinden5: except for the naggy Elite who is constantly telling you where to go
sep7imus: It DID detract from the identification with the Chief, I guess. But that's a pretty simplistic identification, I believe.
narcogen@mac.com: sometimes I hit the button expecting a flashlight
jmchavez: I didn't mind it in terms of playing as him... I did mind it as how it broke up the story
louiswuathbo: they kept CALLING you chief, even when you were the arbiter.
louiswuathbo: that was annoying.
louiswuathbo: and broke immersion.
vansinden5: I thought the story flowed nicely back and forth
sep7imus: (they did?)
haveblue3: louis- I never saw that myself, and I'd count it as a bug
narcogen@mac.com: etiquette... breaking... down!
haveblue3: it's also pretty hard to trigger
narcogen@mac.com: me neither, I never heard them call arbiter "chief"
jmchavez: I don't know... one minute I'm being sucked down into the water by the gravemind... the next? I'm back with the elites
louiswuathbo: happened to me at least twice.
louiswuathbo: the bad one was the endgame.
narcogen@mac.com: Mig, I think it has to do with changing gameplay
narcogen@mac.com: aside from the fact that not all grunts attack you, it's difficult to even be reminded that you're the arbiter
narcogen@mac.com: hence, I think, all the chatty elites
vansinden5: and how come, if we're the big-deal Arbiter, we have the crappy active camo?
narcogen@mac.com: speaking of which, where the heck are those 20k lines of combat dialogue?
sep7imus: (old armor)
tehfrogblast: I understand that it breaks up the story, but the story opens with the Arbiter... following both stories is consitent throughout... from beginning to end.
narcogen@mac.com: I've only played the game through ONCE and I keep hearing the same stuff
jmchavez: well this only my personal experience, but the other thing that bugged me as I was told there was an exponential growth in dialogue, yet I felt heard even less in Halo 2
narcogen@mac.com: yes
sep7imus: Dialogue is also harder to hear...
louiswuathbo: same here, mig.
haveblue3: The problem is that the chief's stories tend to end on cliffhangars, and the Arbiter's chapters are pretty self-contained
narcogen@mac.com: "coward" "we have little time arbiter" "it is well hidden" "stupid jackal, say thanks"
sep7imus: because of the proximity voice thing.
haveblue3: you're always anxious to see what happened to the chief, and not the other way around
jmchavez: ok, let's switch tracks
jmchavez: graphics wise, any comments?
jmchavez: why don't you take
jmchavez: the floor, frogblast on this one if you wish
tehfrogblast: Ok...
tehfrogblast: One of the first things I did when playing the game was to check out a texture while zoomed in.
tehfrogblast: I rmember zooming in on a boulder in the original Halo (on the level Halo) and I was amazed by the level of detail.
tehfrogblast: But the first time I tried it in this game, I wasn't blown away by the detail that I saw
jmchavez: was it the same or less?
tehfrogblast: It seemed less :(
jmchavez: did anything make up for that loss of detail?
louiswuathbo: that would make sense... they upped the bumpmapping, so they could reduce the number of polygons
jmchavez: any more to say FB?
rgmontag: what's cheaper to process, more polys or lots of bumps?
tehfrogblast: Things seem shinier, as mentioned before. g/a
louiswuathbo: bumps are cheaper
jmchavez: how about the geometry itself, FB? since
jmchavez: you spend alot of time pouring over the nooks and crannies of the levels
tehfrogblast: I'm very satisfied with the geometry...
jmchavez: is it 'tighter' or the same as before in terms of areas that you could take advantage of?
tehfrogblast: they spent a lot of time filling in those nooks and crannies when they didn't have to.
jmchavez: in Halo 2?
tehfrogblast: Yes. I don't feel like it is tighter..
tehfrogblast: although I hear that alot.
sep7imus: (Agreed. They seem to have anticipated the Frogblast style exploring of the entire maps.)
vansinden5: why on earth would they want to guard against that?
jmchavez: does anyone know if the modelers in halo 2 were all new to Halo? Did some level makers in Halo 1 work on Halo 2?
sep7imus: I would assume so...
jmchavez: to which?
rgmontag: well, let me bring up the credits
haveblue3: and I'll look in the manuals
sep7imus: and I'll wait for you guys to answer.
tehfrogblast: Ferrex has his name hidden in at least two maps.
jmchavez: we don't have to dig too deep, just curious. I wasn't sure if some of the new modeling blood in the game were from architectural backgrounds
narcogen@mac.com: heh... more rex rooms?
rgmontag: halo 2: Design Leads Paul Bertone ,Jaime Griesemer
rgmontag: halo 1: Lead Designer John Howard
louiswuathbo: they had all these environment artists for halo 2.
jmchavez: a lead to me means they don't do actual nitty gritty of creating the levels
louiswuathbo: there weren't any for halo.
narcogen@mac.com: speaking of Jaime, anybody else hear peasant voices yelling "woo" when they gave Sarge and Chief their medals?
jmchavez: don't recall
haveblue3: the credits are organized differently
jmchavez: the hierarchy is different because the number of folks on it is way different
rgmontag: i'm sure the leads define the feel of it
sep7imus: In any case, when I replayed a few levels today, I felt like they were really quite wide open, with a lot of choices about how to approach battles and explore and stuff.
jmchavez: aye, but not the actual making sure this vector is closed off properly...
sep7imus: What's anyone else's sense of that.
jmchavez: right, Sept, go ahead and chat a bit about that
jmchavez: well ok
jmchavez: I'll say this
jmchavez: it feels big, but it feels like clever trickery to make me think it's big. That doesn't mean...
jmchavez: I think they're evil for doing so, I'm sure there were justifications for it, but I had no sense of sweeping areas, unless they were also very narrowly defined as to how I could go
jmchavez: the obvious is the metropolis bridge
narcogen@mac.com: yes
rgmontag: levels felt too confining, constricted. i didn't feel that there was as much space to move around in as Halo 1
narcogen@mac.com: and the Regret gondolas
jmchavez: that's a HUGE amount of acreage
jmchavez: but it's just one long tunnel really
narcogen@mac.com: but most of it not playable
haveblue3: I felt that Halo 2 is careful to funnel you into a set of approved ways
haveblue3: to beat a scenario
jmchavez: aye, the gondolas as well
louiswuathbo: I was replaying the beginning of delta halo this weekend... and I was pretty disappointed at one point.
haveblue3: whereas halo 1 had fewer obvious ways but more general possibilities
narcogen@mac.com: there's no play area as large or flexible as the open areas of AotCR/TB
louiswuathbo: I had gotten stuck on the last dropship - I was nearly out of ammo, and the red sword elite kept coming up and kicking my ass before I could figure out how to kill him.
haveblue3: there's nothing like the AOTCR banshee jack in halo 2, where it completely changes
sep7imus: Those (bridge, gondolas) are the exceptions, though.
jmchavez: Sept is there an area that you think is in contrast to those?
louiswuathbo: Finally, I headed over the hill (on the road to the bridge) before the dropship landed. Killed the jackals... picked up a sniper... came back.
louiswuathbo: and none of the last wave were still there. :(
That's bad design, and it rarely happened in Halo.
sep7imus: Yeah, there is...
sep7imus: /me struggles to remember the level, though.
jmchavez: general descrip will be fine, I'm sure
jmchavez: while you think about that
jmchavez: I'd like to pour some rage at one group
jmchavez: the MEDIA
jmchavez: if these aren't people that aren't some of the stupidest folks on earth
narcogen@mac.com: for overhyping it before release, or overrating it post-release?
jmchavez: to think that they are bending over backwards to give Halo 2 the uber-awards and all that
louiswuathbo: the overrating bugged me.
sep7imus: Numerous times, approaching the "Library" as the Arbiter, there were a bunch of wide open spaces with bridges, and choices about which vehicles to take to each new encounter.
sep7imus: (just had to get that off my chest)
louiswuathbo: (I'd finished the game by the time those first reviews came out, and I coudln't understand the scores.)
jmchavez: and yet, in my mind, Halo 2 has the *same* amount of repetitiveness that Halo 1 had. I had no problem with it in 1, I don't care about it in 2, but in 1 everyone ragged on Bungie for it
sep7imus: yeah, there was some pretty hyperbolic press coverage.
narcogen@mac.com: yes, mig, same here
narcogen@mac.com: in fact, I think 2 has MORE repetetiveness
jmchavez: that's actually a good point Sept, sorry to co-opt your thinking on that
haveblue3: I don't think Halo 2 is as repetitive as Halo 1, although it's definitely still in there
rgmontag: when you get a free trip to Bungie HQ to play the game early, who's gonna rag on em later in the magazine?
sep7imus: It's not as repetitive as Halo1. I sort of miss it, actually.
louiswuathbo: I think the gameplay was as repetitive, but the environments were not. It was a bit deceptive.
jmchavez: but yes, those open spaces as the elite are just that, open spaces... but what killed me about it is that they were the least creative in terms of what could be done with those open spaces
haveblue3: and I think the stratospheric ratings are including multiplayer, which we haven't gotten to yet
narcogen@mac.com: and I agree with sept, the whole SI/QZ set was much better than h1's library for that reason
narcogen@mac.com: mig, can I grab the floor for a bit on repetition?
jmchavez: I know we've said it over and over again
jmchavez: let me just finish this thought
narcogen@mac.com: sure
jmchavez: but there was some hidden bit of genius, whether accidental or not, in levels like AOTC or T&R. I felt like they took their time in making it
jmchavez: juicy enough to play over and over again. But those library levels in those wide open spaces in H2 just don't have that flavor
jmchavez: unfortunately, and of course in my opinion.
jmchavez: g/a
narcogen@mac.com: just to follow, I think it has to do with being rushed
narcogen@mac.com: Bungie KNEW h1 was going to be rushed
narcogen@mac.com: so I think they scaled back their ambitions
narcogen@mac.com: and polished everything they had
narcogen@mac.com: H2 seems much more ambitious
narcogen@mac.com: ended up being much less than envisioned, and is ROUGH.. everywhere
narcogen@mac.com: everywhere there are signs of things that look as if they needed more tweaking
narcogen@mac.com: But on the repetition
narcogen@mac.com: It's probably the most common complaint about Halo 1
narcogen@mac.com: But I think there were really two kinds of repetition
narcogen@mac.com: the repetition of level geometry, which was either made convenient or dictated by the plot
narcogen@mac.com: and the repetition of textures in interior areas
narcogen@mac.com: the former never bothered me much, although the latter did
narcogen@mac.com: H2 las less of the former, but just as much of the latter
narcogen@mac.com: When Cortana told me I have to go back through High Charity as MC
narcogen@mac.com: Just having finished it, with only one Arbiter level intervening
narcogen@mac.com: knowing I was going to see the same geometry and the same interiors and the same textures
narcogen@mac.com: except now in the dark, against flood
narcogen@mac.com: I wasn't scared or excited.. I was just peeved
narcogen@mac.com: I was wondering how to get through that part as quickly as possible
narcogen@mac.com: g/a
tehfrogblast: (btw I think High Charity is one of the shortest levels)
narcogen@mac.com: thank goodness, too
jmchavez: shall we jump to something else, or anyone else wanna say something?
sep7imus: I just want to say that...
vansinden5: Can anyone tell me why H2 was rushed? Three years is a long time with no buyouts, platform changes, etc.
rgmontag: halo 2's lighting wasn't bright enough
vansinden5: Why did they come away from E3 (2003?) thinking they had nothing and had to start over?
narcogen@mac.com: I think we all want to know why it's rushed
jmchavez: let sept speak
sep7imus: I LIKED the repetition in Halo 1 because it felt like a real place. The bouncing around in Halo 2 from one planet to another made it feel less real.
jmchavez: I just felt amazed
jmchavez: that folks slammed the repeition in 1, but in 2 they didn't even notice it
sep7imus: It made sense to go back through the levels (which played REALLY differently backwards) in Halo 1.
jmchavez: just because the levels are bigger and more interesting in shape
louiswuathbo: but in reality were tunnels. :(
louiswuathbo: (with pretty walls.)
sep7imus: Well, they ARE bigger and more interesting in shape.
jmchavez: if they're stacked a-b-c-d that's still repetition!
narcogen@mac.com: interesting in shape, but not so much in play
louiswuathbo: I never felt lost in AotCR
tehfrogblast: actually . . .aa-bb-cc
tehfrogblast: hehe
narcogen@mac.com: thinking of "nothing but jackal"
sep7imus: And yeah, there are tunnels but each tunnel leads you to the next different encounter.
louiswuathbo: When playing the Sentinal area, I got lost a LOT.
louiswuathbo: kept reversing, covering the same ground.
jmchavez: pi repeated 10 times is no different than 7 repeated 10 times
sep7imus: agreed... that was confusing, Claude.
haveblue3: I didn't really have a problem with that, but Halo 2 has far too few nav points
narcogen@mac.com: and some of the nav points are confusing
sep7imus: And that's something that the press DID complain about.
rgmontag: Cortana provided the Nav points.
narcogen@mac.com: at the end I thought I was supposed to land the banshee on the scarab or something
narcogen@mac.com: yeah... where the heck is cortana?
jmchavez: I didn't really care, just amazed at those same magazines for not seeing it
louiswuathbo: hehe - I tried that too. :)
narcogen@mac.com: she hardly gets any lines
rgmontag: well, not in the Arbiter, and hardly ever in the MC
haveblue3: that's how I beat it on legendary... hide in the scarab and kill the banshees one by one
narcogen@mac.com: and why are there holo generators every 100 yards in HC?
jmchavez: yah dialogue really bothered me, but anyway
sep7imus: I landed the Banshee on the Scarab... and then had to hijack another one to complete the level.
narcogen@mac.com: yeah, sept, me too
louiswuathbo: Narc mentioned lots more content, but rough...
sep7imus: /me points out that that is the kind of variety of approach that isn't possible in Halo 1.
louiswuathbo: when we were out there in August, I remember talking to CJ Cowan about this
rgmontag: has everybody seen the DVD?
jmchavez: y
haveblue3: y
sep7imus: yes
vansinden5: y
louiswuathbo: they were less than two weeks from 'content complete'
louiswuathbo: and cj was amazed that 'new content kept getting checked in'
louiswuathbo: I was thinking, if they're still bringing in new stuff... how are they integrating it?
louiswuathbo: it's like they were just trying to fill the gaps with as much junk as they could,
louiswuathbo: hoping nobody would notice it didn't all fit together.
haveblue3: In Halo 1, there were hardly any "unique" things; in Halo 2 there are a ton of things that are used rarely or only once
rgmontag: according to the DVD, we know that Bungie basically had nothing after E3 2002.
narcogen@mac.com: I think there's a conflict in the design between verisimilitude and "fun"
haveblue3: now we're back to the idea that it was so much more massively ambitious than the first
haveblue3: that even the extra time wasn't enough
narcogen@mac.com: they've made more realistic environments.. busier ones
rgmontag: levels/missions-wise
narcogen@mac.com: but in a game or story, you need to know what is important
narcogen@mac.com: detail draws your eye and says "this place/object is important"
narcogen@mac.com: H1 had lots of blank walls
narcogen@mac.com: because the walls didn't need to be more than walls
jmchavez: i think it proves that you can have all the money, people, talent, track-record, and time and it still doesn't guarantee a homerun
narcogen@mac.com: but EVERYTHING in h2 has a silly amount of detail
sep7imus: yeah, there may be TOO MUCH detail.
narcogen@mac.com: in Cairo I can't even tell what I'm supposed to shoot at sometimes
rgmontag: (hence the pop-in graphics)
narcogen@mac.com: or where the DOORS are
louiswuathbo: but not where it counts... as frogblast noted.
narcogen@mac.com: and.. and the pop-in vs load times?
narcogen@mac.com: GIVE me a load screen
sep7imus: agreed.
vansinden5: lousy trade
narcogen@mac.com: I can't even tell where levels end
jmchavez: that's the same problem I had with Halo PC/Mac
narcogen@mac.com: I want to feel like I accomplished something
narcogen@mac.com: give me a break to go pee and get another beer
vansinden5: I liked the kind of "framed
rgmontag: give us a load screen especially when you flip-flop between characters
vansinden5: beginning of Silent Cart.
narcogen@mac.com: yes.. divided the game up into chapters nicely
haveblue3: or some sort of indication that you've done so
vansinden5: Nothing like that in H2
jmchavez: I don't care about loading times, gimme a break..
haveblue3: usually it's not obvious
sep7imus: Yeah, I remeber stopping
haveblue3: until you spot the chief or the arbiter on the screen
sep7imus: the game and being surprised that I was on level 5.
jmchavez: heh
narcogen@mac.com: the level lists are intentionally misleading
louiswuathbo: level 1 was a friggin' cutscene.
rgmontag: first 2 levels are essentially cutscenes
sep7imus: yeah.
narcogen@mac.com: level 2 was a tutorial
jmchavez: i was amazed that the opening level was just that a level!
vansinden5: same with Arbiter
tehfrogblast: I kept checking to see how many levels I had finished. I had no idea.
jmchavez: did anyone notice that... something else that bugged me...
narcogen@mac.com: yes, and you can't tell what difficulty you've completed each on now
sep7imus: It IS weird, from a narrative perspective...
narcogen@mac.com: h1 had a lovely level UI and they trashed it... why?
sep7imus: that they chose to break up the narrative with the Arbiter narrative...
jmchavez: even after I was many levels in... I would stil occasionally get tutorial windows pop up?
sep7imus: but refused to do so with load screens.
narcogen@mac.com: yeah, I got a tutorial popup in the last level
vansinden5: yeah, I got reminded to reload, on Legendary, on Delta Halo.
louiswuathbo: hehe - mig, before the first online update, in order to unlock foundation, you had to get the banshee roll tutorial in the LAST LEVEL!
sep7imus: yeah...
haveblue3: it constantly reminds you your shields are down
vansinden5: Like I hadn't done that yet.
jmchavez: I think I was more than half way finished, and I'm flying a banshee and it's telling me how to flip it
narcogen@mac.com: I got the banshee bomb tutorial on the last level, just as I was coming in to land at the control room
haveblue3: louis- are you saying that's deliberate? I thought it was a workaround for a bug
louiswuathbo: it was a mistake.
rgmontag: i think turning on subtitles adds extra tutorial pop ups
louiswuathbo: (I think.)
tehfrogblast: Yes a bug last i heard^
jmchavez: i played it first time with no subtitles, and got alot of tutorials
sep7imus: I think it was a msitake, too.
rgmontag: easy mode or normal?
jmchavez: normal
haveblue3: I have the subtitles set to auto and played on heroic, and I never got tutorials or subtitles
jmchavez: heroic this second time
sep7imus: I ended up doing the workaround where you play TGJ on co-op with a new profile, to get the tutorial.
haveblue3: but the guy still ran me through the "view calibration" in the beginning
louiswuathbo: I'm still working on heroic.
sep7imus: me too.
jmchavez: yah, calibration is always there it seems
haveblue3: except on co-op
jmchavez: sheesh, lets move on to something else
narcogen@mac.com: I did most of the game on heroic, then switched down to normal for the last two so I could finish before this chat :)
haveblue3: there it skips the tutorial and the first half of the opening movie
narcogen@mac.com: ok, yeah, mig.. next topic
jmchavez: multiplayer
sep7imus: no complaints.
jmchavez: mark plays that alot, so I'll let him chat about that
louiswuathbo: this is where the effort went.
vansinden5: 'Virtual Couch' sucks ass
louiswuathbo: k, g/a mark
jmchavez: strengths and weaknesses
rgmontag: wish there was some shield damage when you fall from a great height.
haveblue3: The biggest thing about multiplayer is that it creates an even greater
haveblue3: split in the community between those who have it and don't
haveblue3: lanparties were a pain in the ass, XBL is either right there all the time or not affordable/available
haveblue3: and this time the have-nots are literally left with half a game
haveblue3: it's also unfortunate that Frankie admitted they don't plan to patch gameplay issues over Live
haveblue3: just new maps
rgmontag: (halo 2, best marketing tool for XBL)
haveblue3: so most of the irritants are here to stay
jmchavez: g/a?
haveblue3: yeah, g/a
haveblue3: thinking
jmchavez: i play it alot as well
jmchavez: maybe 4 hours a nite
rgmontag: nerd
tehfrogblast: (wow)
sep7imus: really? I never see you on.
narcogen@mac.com: I'll say XBL is impressive and robust.. I've had good games with a 200 ping.. that is impressive
louiswuathbo: my last game was that humpday challenge. :(
haveblue3: I usually do a couple hours
jmchavez: i think, like Halopc, the game in total has issues, but the MP is so sweet, that even despite the problems I play it again and again
narcogen@mac.com: damning with faint praise
jmchavez: i can't really speak to have/have-nots issue... that's something that is always there with any multiplayer game
narcogen@mac.com: yes, but I see mark's point
rgmontag: like gspawn on hbo forums speculated, Halo 1 focused on campaign and tacked on Multi, Halo2 is the exact opposite
jmchavez: but I know I have had a great time with MP, and feel like I'm back to my old days of Myth
narcogen@mac.com: with h1 you had more people willing to put up with the pain of doing lanfests because there was no other viable option
haveblue3: yeah, it's clear that all the final, down-to-the-wire hours were spent on multi
jmchavez: hanging out with the same guys, playing over and over again
narcogen@mac.com: now XBL cuts down that population-- the lanfest-only crowd may not have critical mass any more
jmchavez: meeting rabble, kicking ass and moving on
haveblue3: yes, that's the only way I play. I rarely stay on for long unless I can hook up with 2 or 3 friends
jmchavez: I dunno
louiswuathbo: I'm still planning on hosting one in a couple of months, narc
rgmontag: multiplayer is basically what grants any modern game its longevity]
louiswuathbo: and mig just had one last month
jmchavez: the fact that, much to my surprise, the microphone still works in Lan
rgmontag: IMHO
jmchavez: really makes it great for our lan parties
louiswuathbo: yep
jmchavez: we used to have walkie-talkies between rooms
jmchavez: the headsets really make a difference
tehfrogblast: Well Multi is the thing that will be keeping Halo 2 played for a much longer time than Single player, I can understand why so much energy would go there.
jmchavez: I'm glad they kept that working in system-link
haveblue3: Regardless of what the peanut gallery and MLG may think, removing the pistol was the best change they made
sep7imus: can i jsut say... proximity voice is awesome.
haveblue3: now there is more than 1 viable strategy
narcogen@mac.com: well, I don't know about best, but it was a positive move
jmchavez: if i may
jmchavez: back at E3 '04
jmchavez: we had a chance to play with Frankie and Sketch
jmchavez: and even at Claude's last huge LAN, Sketch was there
jmchavez: they always said the same thing after we played a ton of Halo 1
jmchavez: 'i'm always dying, it's no fun for me'
jmchavez: and I couldn't get what was going on
jmchavez: is it that their skills aren't as good (if they ever where, honestly speaking for all of us of course)
jmchavez: or was Halo 2 really different in some way that made them die less
haveblue3: The elite top-level players have already discovered
jmchavez: now honestly, when I first played the betas and all that, I had the opposite reaction, I'm dying ALOT! Dammit!
vansinden5: I think they walked away from Halo 1 and never looked back
jmchavez: it was really bugging me
haveblue3: that there is no way to absolutely dominate in halo 2
narcogen@mac.com: *cough*CARNEYHOLES*cough*
haveblue3: every weapon has a weakness and a way to baet it
haveblue3: every strategy can be countered
narcogen@mac.com: so.. Bungie nerfed h2 multiplayer so they won't suck?
narcogen@mac.com: :-/
louiswuathbo: lol
rgmontag: the halo 1 pistol was too powerful. i like the weapon balance in h2
sep7imus: heh... but it's NOT nerfed, really.
jmchavez: and thenI think i just got it... the cacophany of the pistols and weapons has been replacing by the anarchy of soldier movement and strategizing
haveblue3: it's possible to do *well*, but not 50-3 slayer well
vansinden5: they began working on H2 and ONLY played that. Maybe they forgot what was fun, gameplay-wise?
jmchavez: halo1 wa ALL about hearing weapons constantly fire... on and on and on
haveblue3: no, it was about hearing pistols constantly fire :/
rgmontag: sniper pistols
jmchavez: yes, because pistols were default
sep7imus: and about eerie moments of silence.
louiswuathbo: but you're right... halo 2 has a lot more running around.
jmchavez: but now I see that MP has the same chaotic energy but not centered around weapons
haveblue3: halo 2 is a a less intense game, but that's not a bad thing
haveblue3: reflexes are de-emphasized
rgmontag: i actually think it's more intense
rgmontag: h2
haveblue3: people with very good reflexes, who depended on them, got a rude surprise
sep7imus: I think it's more intense, too.
jmchavez: I had to eventually figure that out, because I was so immersed in the MP yet I could obviously see with my own eyes that I wansn't using the pistol anywhere near as much
narcogen@mac.com: Halo 2 has a pistol?
rgmontag: you can still rock with the h2 pistol
haveblue3: by "intensity" I mean the constant, neverending exchange of fire that mig mentioned
haveblue3: in Halo 2, high-level strategy is important. where you are, what weapons you are carrying, where the rest of your team is
louiswuathbo: someone needs to explain to me why max would say something like this: http://halo.bungie.org/oldnews.html?item=11565
haveblue3: (halo 2 tried its darndest to ruin slayer, I'm sure)
louiswuathbo: they spent how much money and how many hours on testing... and he's willing to admit a decision like that came down to 'well, we were used to it'?
tehfrogblast: I thought that was hilarious.
haveblue3: a lot of his answers seem like that
jmchavez: that's something I was goign to touch on later... bungie as developers... the happy accidents and the like
sep7imus: thank GOD for ruining slayer... the stategic team games are WAY more compelling.
vansinden5: See? They haven't played H1 in so long, they've completely forgotten some of the good things about it.
narcogen@mac.com: yes
louiswuathbo: they were playing without fall damage because it hadn't been implemented yet. ;(
haveblue3: they either didn't think an issue was important or didn't put much thought into it
jmchavez: I actually remember them saying that when I was in their offices
louiswuathbo: that's nuts.
narcogen@mac.com: heh... it's a new trick
jmchavez: it was something that... it was like
narcogen@mac.com: Sword Diving
rgmontag: weak
jmchavez: 'we're testing the maps, but not everything is on yhet'
narcogen@mac.com: that a good segue into physics?
jmchavez: like the flags were sticking half-way out of the ground
jmchavez: that kind of thing
sep7imus: yeah, fall damage should have been kept in.
narcogen@mac.com: I remember Bungie hyping their physics, especially vehicle physics
narcogen@mac.com: in Halo 1
vansinden5: this goes back to the same question: Why start over, and why run out of time?
narcogen@mac.com: and now they use havok.. like everybody else
narcogen@mac.com: why?
louiswuathbo: is it just me, or do hogs not fly any more?
jmchavez: they don't fly
rgmontag: didn't h1 use bits of havok?
narcogen@mac.com: they don't
vansinden5: parts of them do
louiswuathbo: that part sucks. :(
louiswuathbo: I miss the jumps.
jmchavez: they explode and the parts go flying
narcogen@mac.com: nothing behaves like an h1 player would expect it to
haveblue3: I think that the greater part of the complaints over the physics will go away as people adjust to the change
tehfrogblast: they fly :P
haveblue3: exactly
jmchavez: but the days of 3 rockets sending a warthog flying majestically are gone
louiswuathbo: I was watching a hog jousting match, though. And before the vehicles exploded, they just bumped into each other.
narcogen@mac.com: I dunno, mark
jmchavez: as we forget halo1, yes
louiswuathbo: it looked like bumpercars.
narcogen@mac.com: watch the grunts on Cairo station
sep7imus: Randy... any thoughts on the aerodynamic abilities of hogs?
rgmontag: i like the physics of h2, but it only seems to be used for boxes falling over
narcogen@mac.com: they roll out of the boarding ships like marbles
jmchavez: or the fusion cells
narcogen@mac.com: yeah, I'm still not sure what the real point of that is
haveblue3: I mean, complaints over the hog handling
rgmontag: well, i haven't really played with any hog jumping or jousting
haveblue3: it's different, yes, but I'm not convinced it's better or worse yet
narcogen@mac.com: flying or handling?
haveblue3: driving
narcogen@mac.com: I like the hog driving better
sep7imus: I like the brake.
rgmontag: the hogs certainly seem more grounded
sep7imus: I sucked at driving, before.
narcogen@mac.com: I do NOT like the way ghosts and banshees handle now
jmchavez: h1 had brakes
tehfrogblast: I feel like the hog gets caught up on walls much more.
narcogen@mac.com: h1 brakes were largely pointless, though
haveblue3: yeah they did something wierd with the ghost physics
haveblue3: it gets caught up on stuff a lot more
jmchavez: is it less 'squishy' now, the hogs?
haveblue3: much less
jmchavez: we still have time to keep chatting guys?
louiswuathbo: I'm beginning to hate boarding, too - in crowded areas, I always lose my ghost, because I'm not paying attention to the guy behind me.
haveblue3: and they completely changed how rollovers work, and how you get flipped out
rgmontag: the hogs in h2 have better traction
tehfrogblast: indeed. Driving through the tunnel in outskirts seemed more difficult than it should have been
narcogen@mac.com: yeah, mark, but I think that's better-- I seem to get flipped out of rolling hogs less easily now, I like it
sep7imus: given how light you are, everything else seems really heavy, including vehicles and crates, and such.
sep7imus: they seem like they should move more when grenaded or even just meleed.
haveblue3: I actually think that's more realistic
rgmontag: i like the vehicle boarding.. makes multiplayer more fun
vansinden5: the vehicles seem to have an assist to landing right way up
haveblue3: the increased weight
louiswuathbo: I gotta call it quits, mig - but I'm happy to leave this window open for logging purposes. :)
jmchavez: sure
jmchavez: you miss the part...
vansinden5: boarding is a good way to get rid of red elites in Ghosts
rgmontag: l8r wu
jmchavez: where we try to save this chat from being one long ass bitch session
louiswuathbo: lol
louiswuathbo: I was wondering when we were gonna do that.; )
sep7imus: I've been trying to do that all along.
sep7imus: :P
jmchavez: i was getting to that part
jmchavez: :)
louiswuathbo: yeah, you've been doing well, actually.
haveblue3: probably when we switch to formal moderation, and miguel TELLS us when to talk, because everyone's ignoring the g/a rule
jmchavez: heh
narcogen@mac.com: yeah
louiswuathbo: I'll respond to pertinent points by email tomorrow.
jmchavez: shall we tackle the storyline itself?
narcogen@mac.com: let's
sep7imus: sure
jmchavez: mnem wanna try that
vansinden5: heh
louiswuathbo: /me is gone
vansinden5: er... story?
tehfrogblast: cya Louis
haveblue3: I'm actually about ready to declare this a failure and suggest we switch to a non real time medium, maybe a private forum thread
vansinden5: bye
jmchavez: does it work... is it a success, could it be better, etc.
vansinden5: As has been said...
jmchavez: this is fine mark, wait til I edit it
vansinden5: It's a great middle part of a trilogy.
vansinden5: Problem being, we weren't expecting a trilogy.
rgmontag: you mean a Thrillogy?
rgmontag: ;)
haveblue3: the story, like everything else, was vastly more ambitious this time around
jmchavez: tom has the floor
vansinden5: Some parts are weird. Gravemind, for instance.
vansinden5: Is that some Flood form, or just a kind of uber-zombie thing?
sep7imus: It's a deus ex flora, to bring the two plots together.
haveblue3: feeeeeeed meeeeee
vansinden5: If it's a Flood form, why does it have no specific, Flood-survival purpose?
rgmontag: lol
rgmontag: Gravemind looked much better in the Art of book
vansinden5: It sure was lucky to be on THAT Halo.
narcogen@mac.com: heh
vansinden5: If MC and Regret ended up on, say, installation 02 or something, the Flood would be SOL
haveblue3: unless 02 has its own gravemind
narcogen@mac.com: if it does, why didn't 04?
jmchavez: is that more the fault that the story couldn't explain if there were more GMs?
sep7imus: who says 04 didn't?
vansinden5: then it'd be something like "Cryptbrain"
vansinden5: or CemetaryHead
haveblue3: cortana names it gravemind, we don't know how it refers to itself
rgmontag: 7of9
narcogen@mac.com: if 04 had one, why does 05's manage to find MC and the arbiter but 04's doesn't find... anything and gets blown up?
vansinden5: exactly
narcogen@mac.com: but we're losing etiquette again here
jmchavez: do you think something triggered GM to assert itself that didn't occur in H1?
sep7imus: anwyay, we can agree that Gravemind sticks out as something unexplained that seems like a big loose end.
narcogen@mac.com: Mig, I think it depends on whether GM was something in the original story or something added on
rgmontag: it's clearly written in the Halo Bible, new testament
vansinden5: Maybe Arbiter dying was something the GM had to react to, but I dunno
jmchavez: interesting
vansinden5: And MC, for that matter
tehfrogblast: ooh, I like that
vansinden5: They COULD have just NOT had them dying
sep7imus: Nah... when I play Arbiter and MC die ALL THE TIME, with no reaction.
narcogen@mac.com: heh
vansinden5: heh
haveblue3: yeah I never thought either of them died
haveblue3: the chief was unconscious and the arbiter was falling
jmchavez: or the possibility of the index actually making it that close to activating the ring?
haveblue3: neither of them had a scratch on them
vansinden5: MC was blown up by the Covenant ship hitting slipspace from inside orbit
narcogen@mac.com: well, since the arbiter eventually stops Tartarus from activating the ring
tehfrogblast: scratches use up too much rendering power
vansinden5: Arbiter was knocked out by Tartarus
sep7imus: This conversation is a perfect example of the problem with Gravemind...
narcogen@mac.com: isn't having the Flood combat forms try to kill him prior to that a shocking lack of forethought on GM's part?
vansinden5: Unless he's not Flood, but just plain 'ol dead people
sep7imus: we've got NO real information about him, so he's just a blank sheet onto which anyone can tack any speculation they want.
narcogen@mac.com: Right
haveblue3: not really... if it can keep anyone from getting the index, it still wins
narcogen@mac.com: assuming he controls the flood
jmchavez: aright
narcogen@mac.com: which everyone seems to assume, but I am not convinced of
narcogen@mac.com: ML> yes, but since T can only be killed in a specific way, it doesn't seem as if any number of Flood would manage it :)
vansinden5: Anyway, there are other stoory points that are a bit wonky, but not much more than was wonky in H1
haveblue3: yeah, don't forget the introduction of the flood in halo 1
haveblue3: that was as big a swerve as gravemind
jmchavez: was there anything NEW in the game that you thought just shined?
vansinden5: I think one of the things that will define this game years from now will be the lack of an ending
jmchavez: and bump-mapping is a smart-ass answer :)
sep7imus: the sword is damn fun... especially in single player.
haveblue3: specular is an even more smartass answer :P
narcogen@mac.com: uhh.. moving geometry?
haveblue3: the background paintings are simply breathtaking
jmchavez: i agree with that
narcogen@mac.com: Bits of Cairo were damn impressive
haveblue3: I really would stop and stare at them
jmchavez: and the music
vansinden5: Skulls. ;-)
narcogen@mac.com: uh.. well.. hmm
narcogen@mac.com: the music
sep7imus: It was, overall, a really pretty game.
tehfrogblast: I was going to mention the moveable geometry, which I thought was a nice addition.
narcogen@mac.com: yes, very pretty
sep7imus: I'm a little on the fence about the moving geometry, though.
narcogen@mac.com: the outside bits of Cairo were damn impressive
haveblue3: the cloaking device, again. that's fun
sep7imus: I wish we had more control over it, since sometimes ti made the game feel like a ride.
narcogen@mac.com: very Marathonesque, too
jmchavez: like the gondolas?
rgmontag: weak
vansinden5: I've spent hours on rooftops in Outskirts, just wandering around
narcogen@mac.com: I realize that I *should* hate the gondolas
haveblue3: way too much of the game took place on giant moving objects
vansinden5: Even though the game has that tunnel quality that has been mentioned,
narcogen@mac.com: since they are just as cheap a trick as the Metropolis highway
narcogen@mac.com: just as linear.. they make it into a rail shooter
vansinden5: there's a lot of stuff to go look at around the fringes
vansinden5: I like the gondolas
narcogen@mac.com: BUT Regret is still one of my favorite levels
narcogen@mac.com: And I like the gondolas in spite of myself
sep7imus: I spent a while trying to hijack a banshee from one of the gondolas, but never managed to do so... jsut to get off of it and fly around.
haveblue3: yes, I don't think Halo 2 is any more linear than Halo 1
haveblue3: they just don't disguise it as wel
narcogen@mac.com: it SEEMS it, though
jmchavez: AOTCR -
vansinden5: One of the things I thought about while playing the underwater part, was how much the game reminded me of Myst.
jmchavez: when you get the tank...
narcogen@mac.com: I can't think of any open expanse of territory as large as the fields in AOTCR or TB
haveblue3: sep> I'm pretty sure the banshees on that level cannot be hijacked. I was trying too
vansinden5: Which was a wierd relation
jmchavez: you can go one of two ways... even though they're not so wildly divergent... it still added something to the choices
tehfrogblast: The only non-linear part I can remember from Halo 1 was being allowed to pick which marines to rescue first-last in the level Halo
haveblue3: some parts of the quaratine zone were pretty big
jmchavez: that's another good point
vansinden5: You rescued them?
narcogen@mac.com: big... and dark
vansinden5: ;-)
tehfrogblast: heh
jmchavez: i did notice that in the small corridors, there were always side-corridors that you could use if you wished
jmchavez: not a big deal, but worth mentioning to be fair
sep7imus: little places to duck into and recharge your new improved shield...
narcogen@mac.com: you're reaching, now, Mig :)
jmchavez: so let's wrap some of this up, shall we?
sep7imus: okay.
sep7imus: on the one hand, Halo2 is teh best game evar!!!
rgmontag: errr
narcogen@mac.com: heh
sep7imus: on the other, OMG it suxx0rs, they took out teh pistol.
haveblue3: can I talk about MP some more?
vansinden5: Exactly!
jmchavez: i'll give each of you a chance to say what you will about Halo 2 that is not negative. Take anything into consideration.
jmchavez: yes, RG?
narcogen@mac.com: pick me last, I need to think
jmchavez: Mr. Glass??
rgmontag: multiplayer is great
jmchavez: I was responding to your "errr" commment, don't know if you had something else to say
rgmontag: oh, the err was in resp to "halo2 is teh best game evar"
jmchavez: ok
jmchavez: so you done?
rgmontag: sure
jmchavez: ok, Mark you next
rgmontag: you've read my review
rgmontag: g/a
vansinden5: hater!
haveblue3: I think the "authoritarian" matchmaking was a gamble that paid off hugely
haveblue3: it solves all the problems of the server list system
rgmontag: ditto
haveblue3: if Bungie can keep up their end
jmchavez: too late RG :)
haveblue3: and you play with good people, which they have no control over
haveblue3: I've had virtually no truly sucky games online
sep7imus: I agree.
haveblue3: the servers are not 90% running the same gametype
haveblue3: the focus on short, frantic matches is way better than hour-long CTF stalemates
haveblue3: g/a
jmchavez: Tom?
vansinden5: Okay, I guess I've got to say that, as much as I agree with most of the bitching tonight, I'm having a lot of fun wandering through the game.
vansinden5: I'm guessing that some, if not much, of the negative and sort-of-negative feeling from Halo 1 players is due to our own expectations of H2, fueled by Bungie's own desire not to spoil ANYTHING.
jmchavez: (feel free, the rest of you, to compose something in text editor while you're waiting, then c&p)
vansinden5: Is that non-negative enough?
jmchavez: if that's all you got, then that's all you got
vansinden5: I'm having fun, but still wonder about it once in a while
haveblue3: (and not giving themselves time to get some experience and unlearn their halo 1 habits)
vansinden5: ga
jmchavez: sept?
sep7imus: What I really admire about the game is the narrative. I don't know if doing a complicated narrative that shows both sides of a war is the best way to make a FPS game, since it does take away from immersion.
sep7imus: But the real levels of complexity that we got out of seeing the inner workings of the Covenant, the destruction of the "good humans" versus "evil aliens" idea, is a real step up in ethical and intellectual interest.
sep7imus: (I'm a VERY fast typist) (g/a)
jmchavez: good
jmchavez: FB?
vansinden5: oh, yeah, I liked that part too!
jmchavez: 2 L8
jmchavez: Frogblast?
tehfrogblast: pass
jmchavez: heh
jmchavez: Narc?
narcogen@mac.com: once sec
jmchavez: ok I'll say something then
jmchavez: As much as I nitpick over some elements of the game, it's still hit enough of the right spots where I am constantly playing the MP...
jmchavez: the campaign may be lacking, or it could be me that hasn't adapted to it enough, but the MP has not had any trouble keeping
jmchavez: my attention. The music is improved and the changes to the physics, for the most part, are improved as well.
jmchavez: Dual wielding adds alot to the choices you can make while in game, which I like.e
jmchavez: These all make up for stuff like boss battles, pop-in, glitches here and there, that detract from the game.
jmchavez: My stats on bungie.net will be proof enough that I will be playing H2 for quite some time.
jmchavez: g/a narc
narcogen@mac.com: Halo 2 has lots of fun moments. And it's a very pretty game; I'm constantly calling to my wife "honey, come in here, look at THIS" at something.
narcogen@mac.com: There are some great new bits of music (although I'd stop short of calling it improved from H1).
narcogen@mac.com: The Bungie.net stats interface is superb; the inclusion of RSS, although I'm sure it was not done at my request, feels like it was, and makes me feel warm and fuzzy :)
narcogen@mac.com: And XBL is simply awesome, as it allowed even me, in this part of the world, with a 200+ ping, to have Miguel smack the back of his head against the butt of my SMG four times in my first game online.
jmchavez: :)
narcogen@mac.com: g/a
narcogen@mac.com: :)
jmchavez: ok I ask for only 2 more things
jmchavez: i'll make it quick
sep7imus: good... /me needs sleep.
jmchavez: what do you hope Bungie takes away from our (and all the other) reviews/discussions out there?
jmchavez: go ahead and type out your answer, ok if it overlaps
haveblue3: that jackal snipers suck (but seriously folks)
jmchavez: i imagine you're all typing
sep7imus: Good question. I think that Bungie really responded to their fans with Halo 2. There's something in it for everyone (tricksters, multiplayers, moviemakers).
narcogen@mac.com: That there needs to be a balance between the secrecy needed to keep story elements fresh and surprising, and useful fan feedback on things like gameplay and interface
narcogen@mac.com: I don't mind being kept in the dark about Gravemind, or the Flood coming back
vansinden5: I'd like to see them acknowledge that the story just stops, without anything remotely like the thrill of the Maw run, and reassure us that the end of the story is on its way, soon(tm).
tehfrogblast: Seriously reconsider if pop-ups are an acceptable trade for no loading time.
narcogen@mac.com: I do mind having tradeoffs like popin vs loading time being made in total isolation
sep7imus: sec... uh, thirded.
rgmontag: make halo grand again. large, explorable, non-linear environments. give us an ending that'll feel like we accomplished something after 15 hours of gameplay. put more bungie humor and charm in the game.
narcogen@mac.com: So far I've only seen ONE positive review mention the lack of loading times as a positive
jmchavez: all fall-damage vs problems with sword
haveblue3: I'd like them to spend more time examining why people play the games and what attracts them to it and keeps them playing, and be more careful about what gets removed or tampered with
jmchavez: all = or
rgmontag: g/a
narcogen@mac.com: Don't reinvent what already works, or change things for change's sake
jmchavez: last thing... pretend you are NOT a bungie fan
haveblue3: I actually would vote for pop-up; it's not that noticable either on my xbox or to me personally
narcogen@mac.com: pick a select few additions improvements, and polish them to death
jmchavez: you are just regular joe consumer
sep7imus: i think they shoudl readjust their schedule a abit, so that they stop adding in new things earlier in the development cycle. Then they can spend longer tweaking and trimming.
jmchavez: now, with that mindset involved.... rate halo 2 on scale of 1-10
jmchavez: i give it a 9
vansinden5: ...and keep things consistent from books to game, etc. (or just come out and say that the books AREN'T canon)
haveblue3: 9.5. The vast majority of criticism is only comparing it to Halo 1
narcogen@mac.com: I'd give the original a 9
tehfrogblast: at least a 9
jmchavez: now... you are back to being a Bungie fan
sep7imus: I'd give it a 9. There aren't that many games that compel me to finsih them. Both Halo games really did that, and remained fun afterwards.
rgmontag: 8
jmchavez: now rate the game 1 - 10
rgmontag: (multi = 10)
jmchavez: i give it a 7
narcogen@mac.com: yeah, if not a bungie fan.. a 6 or 7
vansinden5: regular consumer: 9.something
narcogen@mac.com: without being steeped in the mythos, I'm probably wondering what the heck all the fuss is about
haveblue3: 9. The SP was just "very good" but the multiplayer is stellar
vansinden5: Bungie fan: 7
sep7imus: wait, how is this a different question?
rgmontag: bungie fan also 7
narcogen@mac.com: oh, now we're just picking 7 to pick 7
sep7imus: oh... well, I'd give it a little lower, I guess, then as a regular joe... maybe an 8.
rgmontag: as non bungie fan, i will actually say 9.. i revise my rating
vansinden5: that's because we're BUNGIE fans!
haveblue3: so phrase the question as "once you rate halo 2 a 7, what scale is that on?" ;)
jmchavez: you are either well versed in Halo1 and know Bungie games... vs, someoene with no expectations just an xbox player
narcogen@mac.com: on a scale of 7 to 7, I give Halo 7.. a 7!
rgmontag: wait... the ending was lame... back to 8
jmchavez: hah
sep7imus: okay, got to go to bed.
jmchavez: interesting answers
jmchavez: OK Sept, the rest of you
sep7imus: I have a WAY too early day tomorrow.
jmchavez: thanks for taking the time out to do this
haveblue3: again, 9.5 from a n00b, 9.0 from an oldschool
sep7imus: stop answering, MArk.
haveblue3: hey not everyone types as fast as you
jmchavez: i'll try to edit it and submit back to you all to correct and fine tune
sep7imus: i'll hold my breath.
rgmontag: what's going to happen to this log?
vansinden5: do you want more written stuff?
tehfrogblast: I'll replace that "pass" maybe :)
jmchavez: heh
jmchavez: just wait for the email to the list
haveblue3: we post segments on the forum to embarrass each other
vansinden5: FB: the slowest typist
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tehfrogblast: i am very slow yes
tehfrogblast: :(
jmchavez: heh
jmchavez: ok good nite all
tehfrogblast: night
haveblue3: night all
vansinden5: 'sokay :-)
narcogen@mac.com: nite all
rgmontag: l8r
vansinden5: night
jmchavez: good afternoon narc
jmchavez: :)
narcogen@mac.com: good morning still
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haveblue3: heh... now to jump on xbl ;)
rgmontag: errr
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rgmontag: was this productive or what?
narcogen@mac.com: well, I thought so
vansinden5: sort of
narcogen@mac.com: Perhaps not the end-all be-all of Halo 2 reviews, but it was something at least
narcogen@mac.com: I think it's moral support
rgmontag: i think mig just needs a hug
narcogen@mac.com: we have to convince ourselves we're still Bungie fans even though we say bad things about Halo 2
vansinden5: heh
rgmontag: well, there's always 2007
narcogen@mac.com: yeah
vansinden5: and Wideload
vansinden5: ;-)
rgmontag: ;)
narcogen@mac.com: I am rofl'ing over some of the forums insisting that h3 is already done and will be out in six months or less
vansinden5: man, I wish
rgmontag: that was the missing piece from halo 2. the wideload guys
narcogen@mac.com: the humor?
rgmontag: that too
narcogen@mac.com: there are attempts at humor.. mostly they seem to fall flat
narcogen@mac.com: Grunts are just not funny any more
rgmontag: the grunts weren't as funny
rgmontag: yup
vansinden5: I think that boss battles perfectly describe the "new" Bungie and the difficulty with Halo 2
narcogen@mac.com: another thing we didn't mention... was the scale of encounters
narcogen@mac.com: I fully expected larger encounters with more units
rgmontag: well, oni had boss battles.. maybe that's their bungie west contribution to h2
narcogen@mac.com: but the scale of h2 seems the same, or even smaller
vansinden5: There are just too many new, younger people working there who have a less "mature" sense of humor
narcogen@mac.com: well, oni was in a genre replete with boss battles
rgmontag: h2 definitely seemed smaller scale
narcogen@mac.com: the "nothing but jackal" bit of Delta Halo, for instance
rgmontag: yeah, the halo 2 bungie had first time leads working on the missions and levels
rgmontag: not enough senior level experience
rgmontag: imho
vansinden5: I wonder if the 'grizzled ancients' are still enjoying working there, and for how long?
rgmontag: well, microsoft stock ain't what it was pre-acquisition.
vansinden5: (not that *I* wouldn't want to, of course)
vansinden5: Well, I'm out. 'Night.
rgmontag: me 2.. l8r guys
narcogen@mac.com: cya
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